We’ve all seen and heard know it all’s and how that has mostly left us looking for a way to avoid this rare breed of superior humanity as quickly as possible. Thing is, for those who have been received of the Father, been made one in and with Him, we actually know a whole lot more than we think we know, really!
There’s two kinds of knowing the bible talks about, without getting into the Greek meanings, lets just put it this way, there’s the spontaneous intuitive knowing that is purely subjective, meaning, its as if seemingly out of nowhere, we have this flash of genius, knowing that we know that we never studied for or even thought about it with any in-depth searching.
The other knowing is an experiential objective knowing that is used to substantiate the subjective intuitive knowing we received that had no bearing upon our formal education or intellectual abilities.
These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. 1 John 2:26-27
What if the massive extent of available Christian teaching is the cause of most of our confusion?
Can we still learn from one another? For sure, but that learning can only come as it is built upon the reality that the knowledge of God is already within the one we would teach. I cannot teach you something that you don’t already have inherently within you through the Spirit of God. If you read the letters of the apostles, it becomes clear that they fully understood this in how they taught. While the religious world uses the written word of God, especially the New Testament letters, to teach you what they assume you do not understand, they were written with a view to the mind of Christ within you. Paul’s main approach in writing his long logical letter to the Roman believers was to systematically destroy the logic of the natural mind that constantly presenting itself as wisdom, while at the same time, he uncovered the truth of their new life in Christ the truth that was their inheritance, the truth that was within them because of the mind of Christ within them.
Rich
There are three questions which arise as I read this:
Is it the knowledge that is inherently in you, or is it the Spirit that is inherently in you?
How does this relate to the encouragement to move on from the “milk” to the “meat”?
How does this affect the instruction to those who are strong to be graceful to those who are weak?
I’m with you on the difference between subjective and objective knowledge. Another question arises from your explanation: Do you consider one form of knowledge superior to the other?
I like the questions you are asking and i’m excited to have found your blog.
Hi Dave,
Great seeing you here and loving these questions you’ve brought up. I only have a second or two before heading back to work.
I got to know about you through a mutual friend, Old Pete, although I do not like ever calling him, Old Pete. Pete is a most wonderful brother, his ponderings and searching for the Truth is very refreshing to me as I too love thinking out loud.
Later this evening after work I will try and expand upon those questions you’ve brought to my attention, they are the kind of thing that spurs me on, delving into the possibility of seeing fresh insights perhaps not yet discovered, much like viewing a diamond, so many aspects and facets of the precious gem is observed and made known with additional light and angles.
Rich
Hi Dave,
You asked; Is it the knowledge that is inherently in you, or is it the Spirit that is inherently in you?
From my perspective, in the re-birthing, the anointed one that we become one (joined) with becomes our inherent source of knowledge.. These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all
things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. 1 John 2:26-27
In paying attention to how clearly John stated that we (those in Christ) already know the truth; we didn’t need men to teach this to us. What we have already received from God, which is the anointing of his Spirit, teaches us all things.
Indeed we can learn from one another but first I see what we know although not yet clearly, being confirmed or lining up with what we intuitively know, often I see others working in tandem with the Father by putting a face to so much that seems nebulous to us.
How does this relate to the encouragement to move on from the “milk” to the “meat”?
I see it being as follows, we are re-birthed as His children, but the fulness of our birth-right encompasses becoming fully mature sons.
I see the following verses pointing to this ongoing, maturing metamorphosis. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and
marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Although infused with His very life (partakers of His divine nature) we often can spend much time still living out of our fleshly (soulish) mind sets. Learning to live out of our spirit union is what I see being much to do with becoming those maturing sons.
How does this affect the instruction to those who are strong to be graceful to those who are weak?
I think that some of the answer to this is in what I said above, those learning to live out of their spirit graciously and practically encouraging those who are still resorting to the weakness of soulish thinking. I don’t see it being or having anything to do with one having a greater or lesser status as much as I see one learning to live free from and above the gravitational pull of sin and death, walking in the spirit, being lead of the spirit.
Another question arises from your explanation: Do you consider one form of knowledge superior to the other?
No! I see a divine harmony depicted as in a dance. I love how I saw this regarding the letter of the word and the spirit of the word..likened as follows..in performing at weddings (which I have done) you will often hear; what God has joined together let no one put asunder.
From what I see, there has never ever been a divorce in heaven between the spirit and the scriptures, they are One.
Unfortunately for way too long that divorce has been perpetuated by men within the religious sytems.
I love the fact that we have the objectivity of the scriptures to bring along side of the subjective, spontanious and intuitive flow of inner knowing the Spirit brings into our lives.
I trust this is helpful, again, I’m still growing and learning and at best I simply see myself thinking out loud.
You’re good at this, and I enjoyed your answer. I also appreciate your openness – we both know Pete, but we haven’t known each other, so I would have understood if you had been more cautious. But you were fully open and accepting immediately, for which I commend you, and in regards to what I hope will be a new and growing friendship, I thank you. Now, if you don’t mind, let’s continue with the conversation.
I see two parts to your original words. Your answers, and my questions, really only address one part. If I can summarize what I think we both refer to, it is the understanding that when we receive the Holy Spirit, the one spoken of in the passage you quote, we receive the One who leads us into all knowledge about Christ – this Jesus Himself referred to in many passages. John 16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He (the Spirit) will take of Mine and declare it to you.” In the process of this work, you identify subjective knowledge and objective knowledge, which we both agree carry equal weight, although I think we would both agree subjective knowledge – the inner intuition, the inner teaching of the Spirit – is the “meat”, the part of knowledge that all are called to grow in. We might also agree it is the part most are unwilling to do, for a variety of reasons – that unwillingness has led many to fall into faulty teaching. This is the background of what we both write about, that we both have a desire to encourage others to eat the meat – simply said, trust the Spirit and think for yourself. Now, Pete and I have been having a similar discussion which reached an interesting paradox, culminating in his question to me: “Who are we to define the answers to the questions we ask?”
Pete’s question to me actually brings me to the second part of your article, one simple question in the middle: “What if the massive extent of available Christian teaching is the cause of most of our confusion?” The first part is a simple encouragement to trust God and think, because all the tools are at everyone’s disposal – i.e. the working of the Spirit within us. The second part opens Pandora’s box: Just how much and what are we questioning? Your question uses the word “massive” – something I wouldn’t disagree with, but that positions one before a Herculean task. How much of the theology of the last 2000 years, as well as the history and tradition of the church, do we throw out? (As an attempt at my kind of humor, I toss in the two mythological references – probably I’m the only one who gets the humor but that’s ok, I’m used to it).
So, I admit that my questions lead down the path to lengthy discussions on a myriad of questions. However, it is really just life, a journey of knowledge, a journey of discovery, and at its best a journey of fellowship and friendship. The journey isn’t always an easy one, but I wholeheartedly believe it is a journey we are meant to ENJOY – so in that I would hope that I could be as enjoyable to you and to others as the conversation with you is enjoyable to me.
Thanks Dave,
I too welcome and embrace the possibility of a rich and growing relationship with you.
In the process of this work, you identify subjective knowledge and objective knowledge, which we both agree carry equal weight, although I think we would both agree subjective knowledge – the inner intuition, the inner teaching of the Spirit – is the “meat”, the part of knowledge that all are called to grow in.
We might also agree it is the part most are unwilling to do, for a variety of reasons – that unwillingness has led many to fall into faulty teaching. This is the background of what we both write about, that we both have a desire to encourage others to eat the meat – simply said, trust the Spirit and think for yourself. Now, Pete and I have been having a similar discussion which reached an interesting paradox, culminating in his question to me: “Who are we to define the answers to the questions we ask?”
I wholeheartedly agree that the inner teaching of the Spirit is indeed-the “meat” (the part of knowledge that all are called to grow in).
As you pointed out, it is the part that many are unwilling to pursue..for a variety of reasons. This is an area of great concern to me personally in my own continuing journey as well as it is in seeing so many others stymied and not really having any true understanding of whose or who they are, or, any depth of awareness to the battle we are in.
I love your humor Bro, bring it on, it does me good!
So, I admit that my questions lead down the path to lengthy discussions on a myriad of questions. However, it is really just life, a journey of knowledge, a journey of discovery, and at its best a journey of fellowship and friendship. The journey isn’t always an easy one, but I wholeheartedly believe it is a
journey we are meant to ENJOY – so in that I would hope that I could be as enjoyable to you and to others as the conversation with you is enjoyable to me.
It is these very sentiments you have lovingly and clearly laid out here with regard to this ongoing friendship, journey of fellowship, with mutual questions and thoughts being shared openly and freely with one another that so many more insights might yet be discovered by us both.
I have already been greatly enriched by perusing through several things you have shared on your hub-pages, as well as the exceeding gracious and kind interacting with our mutual friend Pete.
It is always a beautiful day when you meet a kindred soul and a new friend. Thank you. So, drop me a line – mdntryder@yahoo.com – and let’s get to know each other better. I follow Pete’s lead on his blog, with most things going back and forth in emails, and I follow your lead here as well. There is usually a flurry of activity on my part Sat – Mon due to my work schedule, but I try to answer as quickly as possible. And thanks about the humor, I’m used to only amusing myself 🙂
Rich has asked me to include an email I sent to him the other day:
Dave and I have been in this on-going discussion for more than a year now, and while I have been rewriting my two blogs I have not been following some of the blogs (including Rich’s) that I did before.
Four days ago I read ‘Know it Alls’ where Rich had written:
What if the massive extent of available Christian teaching is the cause of most of our confusion?
Last night I read ‘Outside the Box’ and was struck particularly by the last paragraph where Rich refers to coming to a deeper understanding of the Father, and that there is nothing sweeter than coming to know the truths of God.
Then I read ‘Treading on Thin Ice’. That surely describes the whole of the Western system of education – including the denominational foundations of the Christian RELIGION.
The sequence of my reading seems to be significant.
***
Dave and I have this vision of reaching out to those who have been negatively affected, or even manipulated by religion. Over the last week or so we seem to have been side-tracked by some of our differing perspectives of the Christian FAITH. Our journeys have been very different and we recognise that we don’t always have to agree with each others perspective.
It’s the last paragraph of ‘Treading on Thin Ice’ that seems to open the door to a very significant discussion. What place COGNITIVE DISSONANCE (an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously)? What place ‘stages of faith?’ How important is it that we all believe the same things?
I have a bit of a reputation for asking the awkward questions to which there are no easy answers, but as Dave knows I am very conscious of the dangers of asking questions that people are not ready to consider – or as Rich might say, questions that are too esoteric for some people.
***
In asking me to post what I had written, Rich had said to me:
I know there are those who are asking, seeking and knocking lurkers wanting so much more than simply cloning or parroting what others have parroted from others, aka just head knowledge.
Thanks Pete for including these thoughts, it does my heart good seeing and hearing how Father is knitting hearts together and geographical distances seemed to be easily leaped over through the contagious spirit of His total unconditional love.
Rich
Dave,
Yes, the kindred soul is like discovering an oasis in a parched land, especially so when you actually discover it isn’t just another mirage, just ask Bugs Bunny about all the sand he’s mouthed while thinking he was actually diving into a pool of water-ha.
I will begin this journey of opening the pages of the story Father has been writing into my life as soon as I can. There is no hurray ever to respond quickly as I know life is different for each of us, His timing is beyond being perfect.
Regarding humor, I’ve often thought I am one of the funniest people I know, at least in my eyes, I certainly laugh at myself all the time! 🙂
I loved these thoughts I read from my friend Pete over on his blog.
1. Bible Analyst = Spiritual sage: As we move beyond modernity, we lose our infatuation with analysis, knowledge, information, “facts,” and belief systems – and those who traffic in them. Instead, we are attracted to leaders who possess that elusive quality of wisdom (think of James 3:???), who practice spiritual disciplines and whose lives are characterized by depth of spiritual practice (not just by the tightness of belief system). These leaders possess a moral authority more closely linked to character than intellectual credentials;
they are more sages than technicians; it’s their slow, thoughtful, considered answer that convinces, not the snap-your-fingers-I-know-that kind of answer-man know-it-all-ness. Dorothy has this “softer” authority, a reflection of her earnestness and kindness as much as her intellectual acumen.
Absolutely a fabulous article!!